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OldKappa

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Registered: Jan 24, 2007
Posts: 1,841
Reply with quote  #1 
Here you have two similarly shaped tonkotsus as the one in  Solve the mystery object but for tobacco.

The first one is just a simple utilitarian model.

The second one is a 9.4cm early bamboo tonkotsu with an ebony cover. Signature not translated but the poem reads: In the evening the cricket lands(?) on yellow the flower. In "Japanese Art Signatures" by James Self, Pg.147; there is an engraving of a wood turner with a similar tonkotsu at his waist.

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DSW90049

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Registered: April 5, 2009
Posts: 4,838
Reply with quote  #2 
These are amazing objects. 
Are they lacquered, or is that wear? 
Can we imagine them hanging below the obi with netsuke perched above?
How 'early' is early?

Wonderful, but then, I am very partial to tonkotsu's.

OldKappa

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Registered: Jan 24, 2007
Posts: 1,841
Reply with quote  #3 
Just patination due to wear. The second tonkotsu is 18th century.
DSW90049

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Reply with quote  #4 
They are wonderful to look at - are they pretty tiny?

Love the drawing of the carver spinning and carving . . .
AFNetsuke

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Registered: Dec 9, 2008
Posts: 3,344
Reply with quote  #5 

Antonio, on the simple one what is the hole between the two holes for the cords? Is it to be plugged and powdered tobacco poured from there as with the incense containers or is this different (or is it even a hole I'm seeing in the pic?)

chonchon

Registered: May 18, 2005
Posts: 4,749
Reply with quote  #6 
Loving the cartoon. Look at the Torii gate that he is using to lean his tool on!
OldKappa

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Registered: Jan 24, 2007
Posts: 1,841
Reply with quote  #7 
They are both 9.5cm in diameter.

It is just a natural blemish between the two cord holes . As to the one in the cover, since there is no sign of wear around the hole, I don't think there was a manju style plug.  Personally I think that originally the cord must have finished in hanamusubi knot as the ones you see in many kinchaku purses.

Is that Tori gate there, just because it is a practical shape or is there a hidden meaning?

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DSW90049

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Posts: 4,838
Reply with quote  #8 
Remember the song, I'm Looking Over a Four-leaf Clover

I'm Looking Over a Four-Leaf Clover

Words by Mort Dixon, music by Harry Woods
Written in 1927 - popularized in 1948 by Art Mooney
(pub. domain)

"I'm looking over a four-leaf clover
That I overlooked before.
One leaf is sunshine, the second is rain,
Third is the roses that grow in the lane.
No need explaining, the one remaining
Is somebody I adore.
I'm looking over a four-leaf clover
That I overlooked before."

[since my efforts to paste in pics cannot apparently be seen by all, here's the link to the visual ~ the four-leaf clover image sure looks a lot like that one in OK's post above, no?]

http://wiki.williams.edu/download/attachments/4723745/four-leaf-clover.jpg

if you can see them:

http://wiki.williams.edu/download/attachments/4723745/four-leaf-clover.jpg
do we have a Jungian archetype here?!?

SteamCollector

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Registered: Aug 8, 2010
Posts: 2,955
Reply with quote  #9 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSW90049
These are amazing objects. 
Are they lacquered, or is that wear? 
Can we imagine them hanging below the obi with netsuke perched above?
How 'early' is early?

Wonderful, but then, I am very partial to tonkotsu's.

 

How do you like this one?

 

SC

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DSW90049

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Reply with quote  #10 
SC, I like it a LOT.
The gent depicted must be a Westerner, no?
Or is that (mutton chop) pattern of facial hair known among the Japanese of Old Japan as well?  The look was popularized by Gen Ambrose Burnside in the US Civil War, hence the term 'sideburns' came into the popular vernacular.
~ how's that for some morning trivia?

Does it open from the top?
How big?
Really like that one.

P.S.  Since posting, I have been informed that the gent in the tonkotsu is actually Asahina Saburu  - because I did not know that, and guessed wrong, above - here's the Wikipedia info. on this gent:

"Asahina Yoshihide (朝比奈 義秀?), also known as Asahina Saburō (朝比奈 三朗?), was a Japanese warrior of the early 13th century, and the son of Wada Yoshimori[1][2]. His name (also written with the characters 朝夷奈 (Asaina?)) stems from the fact he used to live in Awa no Kuni's (安房?) Asaina-gun (朝夷奈郡?). Though very likely a historical figure, Yoshihide appears in literature and in Kabuki as a somewhat superhuman legendary character. According to these, his mother was famous amazon Tomoe Gozen, and he had superhuman strength which he used to accomplish a number of stunning feats."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asahina_Yoshihide

P.P.S.  Thanks Old Kappa, for posting the pics of the prints below, depicting this semi-legendary gent!  Just for fun, note the resemblance to
 http://www.civilwarhome.com/images/burnside.jpg
US Civil War Gen. Ambrose Burnside.

- if you can't see the image, here's the link:
http://www.civilwarhome.com/images/burnside.jpg

If they lived in the same century, which they did not, brothers from a different mother, perhaps?

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AFNetsuke

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Registered: Dec 9, 2008
Posts: 3,344
Reply with quote  #11 

Nice tonkotsu, SC.

Who's going to explain the prints for us? Especially the first one where Saburo is holding a toy hobby horse, the fourth talking to two minogame, and the last one in which I can't tell what object he is holding.

SteamCollector

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Registered: Aug 8, 2010
Posts: 2,955
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFNetsuke

Nice tonkotsu, SC.

Who's going to explain the prints for us? Especially the first one where Saburo is holding a toy hobby horse, the fourth talking to two minogame, and the last one in which I can't tell what object he is holding.

 

The scroll reads 'fukuju'which means something like 'long life and happiness' (or in Vulcan, 'live long and prosper') and the minogame are symbols of long life. In the last print, Saburo is holding a rather fat looking kiseru. Possibly a protoype for the 'stash pipes' hippies were so fond of! The toy hobby horse is a mystery.

 

SC

SteamCollector

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Posts: 2,955
Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSW90049
SC, I like it a LOT.
The gent depicted must be a Westerner, no?
Or is that (mutton chop) pattern of facial hair known among the Japanese of Old Japan as well?  The look was popularized by Gen Ambrose Burnside in the US Civil War, hence the term 'sideburns' came into the popular vernacular.
~ how's that for some morning trivia?

Does it open from the top?
How big?
Really like that one.

P.S.  Since posting, I have been informed that the gent in the tonkotsu is actually Asahina Saburu  - because I did not know that, and guessed wrong, above - here's the Wikipedia info. on this gent:

"Asahina Yoshihide (朝比奈 義秀?), also known as Asahina Saburō (朝比奈 三朗?), was a Japanese warrior of the early 13th century, and the son of Wada Yoshimori[1][2]. His name (also written with the characters 朝夷奈 (Asaina?)) stems from the fact he used to live in Awa no Kuni's (安房?) Asaina-gun (朝夷奈郡?). Though very likely a historical figure, Yoshihide appears in literature and in Kabuki as a somewhat superhuman legendary character. According to these, his mother was famous amazon Tomoe Gozen, and he had superhuman strength which he used to accomplish a number of stunning feats."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asahina_Yoshihide

P.P.S.  Thanks Old Kappa, for posting the pics of the prints below, depicting this semi-legendary gent!  Just for fun, note the resemblance to
 http://www.civilwarhome.com/images/burnside.jpg
US Civil War Gen. Ambrose Burnside.

- if you can't see the image, here's the link:
http://www.civilwarhome.com/images/burnside.jpg

If they lived in the same century, which they did not, brothers from a different mother, perhaps?

 

Yes, it opens from the top and it's about 8 cm in diameter by 4.5 cm thick. I'll try to post more photos of it. By the way, the bottom depicts the Tokugawa mon.

 

SC

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Posts: 2,955
Reply with quote  #14 

More photos:

 

 

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SteamCollector

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Registered: Aug 8, 2010
Posts: 2,955
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFNetsuke

Nice tonkotsu, SC.

Who's going to explain the prints for us? Especially the first one where Saburo is holding a toy hobby horse, the fourth talking to two minogame, and the last one in which I can't tell what object he is holding.

 

I stumbled across this on page 132 of 'Netsuke' by Welch and Chappell: "It (the toy hobby horse) might have commemorated the year of the horse or the dance of the spring pony (haru goma shosa), which celebrated the new year and was performed by itinerant dancers who rode hobby horses or carried toy horse heads mounted on sticks."

 

SC

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